18/5/09

Interview: S.Louis (συγγραφέας του βιβλίου "το φαινόμενο των ούλτρας στην Ιταλία")

Αναδημοσιεύουμε τη συνέντευξη που μας έδωσε - στα αγγλικά - ο συγγραφέας ενός εκ των πλέον ενδιαφέροντων βιβλίων, σχετικά με τους οπαδούς, το κίνημα των ούλτρας και την συνολική λογική, ιστορία και νοοτροπία του κινήματος όπως ξεκίνησε και συνεχίστηκε στην Ιταλία. Ευχαριστούμε το Sebastien Louis για τη συνέντευξη, τον ευχαριστούμε και για το βιβλίο που μας έδωσε (για γαλλομαθείς ακόμη δυστυχώς), αλλά επιπλέον ευχαριστούμε τη "Mafalda" για το χρόνο που αφιέρωσε, ως προς τη συνέντευξη (επιμέλεια - μεταφράσεις κλπ). Η συνέντευξη η οποία χρίζει μεγάλου ενδιαφέροντος για τους "γνώστες" του αντικειμένου... θα παρουσιασθεί σε 3-4 μέρη (parts)...
.
PART1...
First of all, you are the writer of the book `Le phénomène ultras en Italie`. As we haven’t meet with your book, can you tell us about it? Why Italian Ultras? What was the motive that made you write about them?

This book is the result of my research at University. To get my Bachelor degree’s in 2002, I had to write a thesis, and decide to chose as a subject of research the ultras movement in Italy. Why such a choice? It was quit natural for me, as an member of “Commando ultra” of Marseille since 1994, I had since be a passionate from this phenomenon, especially in Italy. Our group in Marseille was founded in 1984, the idea was “imported” from Italy, where the first ultras group where created at the end of the sixties (1960). For us, French ultras, Italy was always saw as “Mecqua” and we had a strong friendship with Sampdoria’s ultras. So in march 1996, for the first time I went in Italy to saw a game, Udinese-Sampdoria, and just get mad for what I saw. It was another dimension. The ultras phenomenon was really strong and even in 4th or 5th division you could see good organization on the terraces. Since that, I decide to bought all the book about the subject, to collect ultras material and to go often to Italy. Since this first game, I saw more than 50 games in Italy, always standing with the ultras, in all the country, in 1st, but also in 5th division, from Venezia, to Naples, the greatest game, such Roma derby to anonymous game with less than 1000 spectator, but still with ultras.
My academically choice was then natural, for most of the people the ultras were only dangerous and crazy fans, I wanted to explain such an important subculture from an historical perspective. Almost all the research was made from a sociological point of view, or anthropological, so I decide, as I was studying history to it from an long term perspective: from the rise of the movement in 1968 to our days.
My academical work went well, and I was lucky to had a university professor who trust me, and I get my Bachelor degree. My friend in “Commando Ultra” new about my work and as me to wrote my thesis, most of them were enthusiastic about it and push me to publish such a work. Then the newt year I decided to continue such a research and I wrote another thesis for my Master degree in 2003. After I get my degree, I decide to look for a publishing house, and found one in Paris who was interested to do a book about this work in 2005. I made some little changes at my thesis and put some element of my Master’s thesis inside and the book was publish in June 2006.
.
You are one of the few people that know so well the history and the mentality of Italian Ultras. At your opinion, with all these events and laws lately, the end of the traditional ultras movement, is near?
.
I don’t think that I am THE specialist of ultras phenomenon, ot is a complex world and I need to always aware of the changes and spend a lot of time talking with ultras, looking on Internet, buying books, as all knowledge you have to be always curious and modest. I met some much people with a lots of knowledge about this world, but the problem is that they didn’t have the conscious that this culture must be saved and maybe, that’s one of the difference with them, because of my historian formation, I know that such an informal subculture has few stamp material, academicals work and at the exception of the archives of the Progetto ultra in Bologna we must saved such sources. By doing a PHD I had more time to explore such a world and I am trying to keep a memory of this world. To come back to your initial question, the traditional ultras movement is nearly at the edge. In fact, if you have a look at what happen, even with these repressive law, you can still see ultras, but it is more on the form. On the contents the ultras movement doesn’t exist anymore. The surviving groups had adapted their still to continue, but just have a look. A lot of game are closed for away fans, you need to be careful to your acts because the repression is crazy, Naples fans have no more right since the event of AS Roma – Napoli of last September (where they were accused to have destroy a train by the whole medias and the truth is almost nothing happen). A lot of so-called “ultras” have good connection with the team’s president or with authority. Some are earning money with it, we saw form of organized criminality, without talking about political extremisms … The spirit of ultras is still alive, but the ultras who are still present had done to much comp omission to survive, after in some clubs: Sampdoria, Atalanta, Pisa and others who remain ultras with the right spirit are just the exception who proves the rule.
Apolitical curvas. A true story or just a theory? A kind of solution?.
It is possible to see real apolitical curvas, but they are an exception because the ultras movement was born with a political form. I mean that at the beginning in the late sixties and beginning of the seventies the first group to be founded had for model the political radical organization who exist in Italy at the time. Italy, as the rest of the world, saw a lot of political troubles at that period. It was a time where a whole generation was asking for change. For part of them this change could only come with a political activity in radical party. For most of the youth it was in radical left wing organization, but for some of them, it was in neofascist group. So a part of the first ultras were activist and for the rest they were living in such a society were demonstrations were daily in the country and who wanted a radical change of their conservative society. Finally, the radical activist were a model for this youngster, they just love their image, and took in on the stands. The first name of the group are a testimony of such an influence: “Fedayn” of AS Roma, “Brigate Gialloblu” at Verona, “Potere Nerazzuro” at Inter, ”Autonomia Bianconera” at Turin with Juventus, …
But, even if they had such a model, almost all of the ultras went to the stadium to support their team. Some fascist guy were standing next to communist. Political was not the real matter but their beloved team was. The political conscience exist for some, but the predominant idea was the ultras group. So politic always had connection with the ultras, but is was more a pretext for some and a model for the other. Still now, since the end of the 1980’s, we see a return of politic, with a domination of the right wing extremist ideas. And that’s is the opposite of the ideas of the founders of the ultras. Most of them had a left wing background. Now the neofascist ideas seduce more and more on the terraces, but still, most of the ultras don’t have a real ideas of politic, most of them don’t care, they are a lot of provocation. It is a youth movement, never forget that.
You just have to see the political sign on the curvas as a reflect of the dominant opinions in Italy. Since the end of the eighties and the social change in Italy, an immigrant country who became suddenly an emigration country, the right wing ideas seduce a major part of the population.
To come back to your question, I cannot give solution to the ultras, they are the one who decide, and apolitical curves exist in Italy, on the other hand you can see stands where political “unify” the ultras, but that is more a question of image, do you believe that all the ultras of Livorno are communist? That’s impossible as the opposite, in Verona, not all the curva is fascist.

1 σχόλιο:

Mafalda είπε...

και εγώ ευχαριστώ :))